A Conversation with Gavin Atlas

A Conversation with Gavin Atlas

(Because Kei said she wasn’t sure she could think of questions, Gavin has been interviewed by imaginary interviewer, Guy Smiley.)

Guy Smiley:  Hi Gavin.  Why not start with a short bio?

Gavin: Hi, imaginary Guy.  I’m a short story writer, mostly of gay erotica.  My book, The Boy Can’t Help It, is a collection of fourteen of my stories from Lethe Press.  I’m also a publicist for Excessica Publishing, and I sometimes edit for publishers and beta read although I’m slow with that because of ADD.   Also, I’m a descendant of a wizard, and I’m mostly not kidding. 

Guy Smiley: Can you tell us about recent or upcoming releases? 

Gavin: I have three stories due out within the next six months.  “Pink Cowboy Hat” will be in Neil Plakcy’s anthology, Model Men (Cleis Press).  For that I had a Ferris Bueller-like college senior charm his way into the life of a sweet-natured male model.   There’s “Fair Trade” which will be in Melt in Your Mouth (Lethe Press), an anthology from C.B. Potts,  coming out in 2012.  That anthology’s theme is “chocolate, boys, and bed”.  For “Fair Trade” it was lucky I’d been to a cocoa plantation in Tobago since that helped me form the story.  Then there is a story called “Engine of Repression” which will be in Jerry Wheeler’s Riding the Rails (Bold Strokes Books).  As far as writing, I think that’s my best story so far.  I’m hoping readers still find it hot, though. 

Guy Smiley:  How do reader reactions affect you and how do they affect your writing?  Has negative criticism (or positive criticism, for that matter) stopped you from writing certain stories?

Gavin:  Negative criticism has made me examine how dark I write and from what point of view.  In the past I found readers don’t always view some acts as consensual when I intended them to be.  Now if I write “dub con” work I’m probably going to write it from the bottom’s POV.  Overall, constructive negative criticism is useful, although I have to remember most of the time, reviews aren’t meant for authors so much as for other readers. 

Positive criticism can pull me in different directions because I like pleasing everyone.  One person told me readers find realistic stories hotter because they can imagine them happening to themselves.  Therefore he wants me to steer away from sci fi scenarios.  Another reader preferred sci fi scenarios because they allow for more sex and wilder sex than is possible in real life.  So it’s not easy to know what to do.

Guy Smiley:  You’ve said frequently you want to publish in other genres.  Why isn’t  erotica enough?

Gavin:  A friend of mine said, “it’s the fundamental nature of a writer to want to put a book in someone’s hands and say ‘I wrote that,’” and even though I have a print book, more than 75% of the time I can’t do that because it’s erotica.  I would like to talk about writing with family and friends, and it’s usually not possible.  What’s worse, from my upbringing I’ve internalized discomfort with sex and sex writing, so sometimes it might be good for me to write something else.   

What helps me, however, is “The Best Friend Technique” where you imagine what’s bothering you happened to your best friend instead.  So say my best friend is named Porthos, and he’s feeling like a bad guy for his erotica career.   I’d probably say “Porthos, you’re not bad because you’re writing erotica, even if it’s not loving, monogamous erotica.  You’re not writing about serial killers skinning people alive or making movies where every summer scores of teenagers go to Camp Crystal Lake to be mutilated on screen.  Nobody says those writers are bad people, right?  You’re not either.” 

Guy Smiley:  If you did choose other genres, which would you explore?

  Gavin:  Many of my ideas are erotic, and if I have anything important to say about the human condition, it will likely be about sexuality.  So I don’t think I’m ever going to stop writing erotica, although perhaps I’ll write more fiction with explicit content that’s not really meant to arouse.  I wouldn’t consider that erotica.   One genre I wish I could publish in is humor, but humor is nearly impossible to break into unless you’re already famous for something else, like a TV show or a newspaper column.  Also, if you look at some of the most popular humor writing such as David Sedaris, nearly none of it is fiction.  Also, humor is so subjective.  Who says I’m funny besides my mom? (::cue crickets::)   

Guy Smiley:  Why not just write novels that are considered mainstream or literary, but happen to be funny?

Gavin:  My ADD is fairly bad and getting worse (Yes, I know.  I should not be on the internet, but here I am.)  Also, bipolar lows make it difficult to complete any project, let alone a lengthy one.  I will keep trying though.  It may not happen, but writing a novel is a top goal.   Once at a conference, I was told by an agent that she’d heard the story I wrote for Wired Hard 4 was very good, and she wanted to know if I had any novels.  I wish I could have told her yes. 

Guy Smiley:  What do you think is the secret to making sex scenes hot?

Gavin:  I’m not sure I always succeed at that, but I follow the advice of author Emma Holly.  There should always be tension in the sex scene.   You don’t want to have the sex scene occur after the story is over because if the conflict is resolved, continuing to read is less compelling even if the sex is good.  That’s probably not that hard to do in a thriller or a mystery where the characters lives could be in danger, but I tend to want conflict over the sex itself.   I’m usually not a fan of using cheating as a device, but other kinds of indecent proposals can be fun as long as we know the somewhat coerced party is very much turned on.  I find reluctance and the inability to resist temptation to be hot components.  I think for something closer to romance, a longer chase with building lust and a growing friendship would result in a bigger payoff.  

Guy Smiley:  What aspects of your writing, if any, have improved the most since you started writing and publishing erotica?

Gavin:  I think my ability to describe physical and emotional detail.  I have an author friend, Madeleine Drake, who does a lot of beta reading for me, and she’s showed me how giving physical details – curling toes or the pleasant thrum of endorphins in your gut after you’ve come – makes the scene much more tangible to the reader. 

Guy Smiley:  What’s the most recent book you’ve read that you recommend?   What’s next on your reading list? 

Gavin:  The ADD means I read little, but I really enjoyed The Cranberry Hush by Ben Monopoli and last fall I read The Silver Hearted by David McConnell.  The first book is light while the second is rich with evocative language and imagery, but they both do a wonderful job with human relationships.  I continue to be amazed with The Silver Hearted.  It’s the kind of book that makes me wish I could be a graduate student and write a dissertation on it.  What’s next?  I’m looking forward to Detours by Jeffrey Ricker and Holy Rollers by Rob Byrnes as well as a re-release from D.V. Sadero called Revolt of the Naked.  That book was originally published in the 1990s and was so popular that used copies were going for $200.  I imagine now that it’s available at a non-larcenous price it will be flying off shelves. 

Guy Smiley:  Okay, it hasn’t escaped my attention that you mentioned you were descended from a wizard and failed to elaborate.  Are you planning on getting around to that? 

Gavin:  Every time I tell this story my dad says I get parts of it wrong, but here goes.  We’re descended from a nobleman-slash-religious figure (I’m not giving his name to avoid family members finding this interview) who was an advisor to a pretty powerful king in India in the late 1700s and early 1800s.  His “acts” that he’s known for are attributed to him being a “holy man” instead of a wizard, but according to legend, a river miraculously obeyed his command not to flood the king’s capital and his “magic purse” was never empty of coins.  Anyhow, if I have any wizard powers I certainly don’t know about them, but it’s fun to say, “Hey, I’m part wizard.”

Guy:  Finally, The Barbara Walters question – if you could be a tree, what kind of tree would you be?

Gavin:  Honestly, Guy, you’re a total nut, but to answer your question, I’d want to be a palm tree, I think.  People who live in non-palm tree areas usually associate palm trees with vacations, relaxation, tranquility, and happiness.  I like the idea of giving people happiness.  So that’s what I’d like to be. :)      

Gavin has a website at gavinatlas.com .

Defining Gay Romance, Porn Fiction, and Gay Erotica

 Hi, this is Gavin Atlas, and Kayla is allowing me to respond to her post about m/m romance vs. gay romance as well as some of the great comments she got on that post.  How I view this may not clear anything up, but here goes.

First, why bother?  Here’s why: Defining genres and sub-genres is done to help readers find books they’d like while helping them avoid what they wouldn’t.  This usually generates sales.  One of the publishers I write for, Excessica, tells the readers if a story will have an HEA, HFN, or ambiguous ending with the intention of limiting disappointment as much as possible.  Not that it always works, but it appears that both reviewers and general readers appreciate the tactic.  

DC Juris commented on Kayla’s post that m/m romance and gay romance are more alike than not.  I agree.  Although I’m not a publisher nor am I someone generally considered a romance writer,  from my training as an editor, publicist, and reviewer I can say that in publishing, to truly be a romance, there pretty much has to be a Happily Ever After ending—otherwise I suspect most (but not all) publishers would say it's not truly a romance.  Also, getting to that HEA is the primary conflict or goal of the story, not a subplot.  So no matter what subcategory of romance your story is placed in, I imagine the same bulwarks of the genre will have to be present. 

What Kayla noticed is that some readers are going to want to see gay relationships that are solidly built over time and portrayed as monogamous, and she labeled that as M/M romance.  Okay, sure. Why not?  I think that label would be helpful (or so I imagine) and if it's decided that "gay romance" is a story that still has an HEA ending but is more open to a variety of sexual situations, possibly more explicit on average, and less concerned with monogamy, then okay— that will help some readers find what they want or know what they want to avoid which, again, is probably the whole point of worrying over what belongs where.  

By the way, I don’t want to ignore the fact that for some, terms like “M/M erotica” or “Gay erotica” carry some socio-political connotations when I don’t think that was ever the intention.  What I’m imagining (and have heard) is that the term “M/M” denies the gay identity and is therefore inherently homophobic because it represents what the majority wants us to be like instead of what we are.  I’ve also heard the counter argument that “M/M” encompasses a much wider array of identities and is actually more inclusive than exclusory.  That sounds more plausible to me.   Personally, I have to say “Really?  Women (and men) who write about loving relationships between men and calling it ‘M/M romance’ are being insensitive and insulting?”  I can’t say the negative attitude towards the term “M/M” is 100% wrong, but if there is any truth that M/M romance is somehow bad for gay men, I haven’t seen it.  So for argument’s sake, let’s say both terms are positive ones and can be useful to readers, writers, and publishers. 

Defining genres sharply is never going to be a perfect system, especially for erotica authors and readers and, nearly to the same degree, for writers and readers of non-erotic romance.  As the internet shrinks the divide between author and reader, it’s become clear to writers that “squicks” and turn-ons are so individualized that what one person considers wonderful erotic romance is another person’s DNF trash.  Because a squick is usually such a strong gut reaction, readers are probably going to have more interest in avoiding something they don’t want to read in erotic fiction than, say, a cozy mystery or historical fiction.   So erotica authors have more landmines to navigate than writers in many other genres.  

This brings me to where D.C. Juris referred to sex writing where there is no romance “required, implied, or expected” as “Stroke Fiction”.  I’m going to call that “porn,” but it might also be called “erotica” or “literary erotica.”  Here’s why:  

I think it was author Lars Eighner who said something like the following:  "The goal of pretty much any other genre of fiction is to tell a story.  The goal of porn is to arouse the reader.” I think the difference between porn and erotica is that in erotica, you have to both tell a story and arouse the reader. 

Meanwhile, I think publisher Steve Berman once said that with literary fiction, the author is trying to "either enlighten the reader or move the reader emotionally" so for literary erotica, it would make sense if that meant the author needs to either enlighten the reader or move the reader emotionally as well as tell a story as well as arouse the reader.  (By the way, I agree with Erastes in her comment that the definition of “literature” keeps changing, and it can mean different things to everyone who uses the word.)

Here’s another asterisked observation:  I can really only speak as a short story writer, and I think the majority of readers would agree that for a romance to be successful, the relationship has to develop over time which means the author will want to show the connection grow steadily (or not so steadily) in a longer format like a novella or novel instead of a short story.  Meanwhile, porn stories are often brief encounters and, in my opinion, are more suited to short fiction instead of a novel.  

So there you have it:  “Porn,” “Erotica,” and “Literary Erotica” defined to the best of my ability with an attempt at how authors or publishers might divide “M/M romance” and “Gay romance” to guide readers toward what they want.  But wait, there’s more…

I suspect the main difference between who reads and writes "erotic romance" and who reads and writes "porn" may change, and here's why:  Magazines like Honcho, Mandate, and Torso used to be some of primary sources of gay porn fiction, and their customers were probably more interested in the photos than the fiction.  Though there were some all-story magazines, in general, these markets usually wanted stories shorter than 3000 words and got to the sex before 1000 words.  Yep. The goal was to arouse the reader and get him aroused quickly before he went back to the photos of “Falcon Video’s New Bottom Discovery”.   

Now I only wrote one story for the magazines before they began to shut down, and writers younger than me are going to have even less reason to write for readers who are mostly interested in naked pictures and want hot encounters instead of complete story arcs. While Advocate Men and Freshmen still want fiction, most readers and writers who want gay "porn stories" or “erotica” will now go to anthologies from editors like Neil Plakcy, Shane Allison, Jerry Wheeler, Richard Labonte, Cecilia Tan, Fred Towers, and so forth. (These editors and others are developing niches so you’ll know which ones to pick up if you want something more romantic, something more raw, something more experimental, something speculative, etc.)  Because there's really no visual stimulus except for the cover photo, these readers must have picked up the book for verbal stimulation, right?  Thus, readers are going to be much more interested in getting an actual story and, I bet, more and more writers are going to be adapting.   It may not be romantic, it may not end happily, but I suspect with greater frequency you'll be finding developed characters and a complete story arc for them.  And I bet nine times out of ten that will make what's hot much hotter.

Catch up with Gavin on Facebook or at gavinatlas.com.